Thursday, August 21, 2014

Re: [AvC] Re: THE INQUISITIVE IN PURSUIT OF THE INCONCEIVABLE.



On Thursday, August 21, 2014 7:10:05 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:


On Thursday, August 21, 2014 6:55:39 AM UTC-4, e_space wrote:


On Thursday, August 21, 2014 6:06:29 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:


On Thursday, August 21, 2014 5:55:29 AM UTC-4, e_space wrote:


On Thursday, August 21, 2014 12:41:31 AM UTC-4, LL wrote:


On Aug 20, 2014, at 1:21 PM, e_space <espac...@gmail.com> wrote:

> science is not going to provide evidence of GOD any time soon ... it can't even say for sure what OBE's are ...  

Then there is no reason to believe god or OBEs exist except in the imagination.

regarding OBE: from your perspective yes, but not from those who have had them ... they are not imagined and are often the most important and inspiring experiences in a persons life, to the point where they are actually life changing, as in my case ... 

regarding GOD: i agree ... there is no evidence, and without the experience, let your imagination run wild, or not (shrug)
 
What do you say to one who claims as vivid and life changing an epiphany (experience of God) as your experience of OBE? 

an epiphany doesn't mean an experience of GOD ...

It has other meanings but it can mean that:
2:  an appearance or manifestation especially of a divine being
 
if someone tells me that they have seen a big white-bearded guy sitting up in the clouds i tell them i am very happy for them and then beat a quick retreat ... if someone wants to talk about their OBE i certainly am interested ... if they start talking about physical things such as they see on earth (i.e. looking down at their body from above),

Suppose they could successfully tell the future by dreams in some of which a voice claiming to be God speaks to them?

i have had many distinct flash premonitions, and whenever i have them, they come true, usually right away ... there are numerous incidents of people "knowing" when their child is in a car accident, for example ... i have a positive feeling about these things, but still don't know how/why/who etc ... for many people, when something seemingly remarkable or unusual happens, they claim it be be GOD speaking to them ... i have no problem with them doing so, but i don't call it GOD myself ... i don't enjoy the hierarchy aspect of GOD, who is supposedly a male, who is dominant and superior ... in my concept of "spirit" there is no hierarchy, just a soup of equal parts ... but like i said, who the hell knows? ;-^)
 
 I hope I don't upset you by saying this, but I wouldn't call it a premonition if it hasn't happened yet. When I was younger, I used to have "daydreams" quite a bit and they'd occur (hasn't happened in many years. I also used to have OBEs and can tell you, they're nothing to play with).

i quickly come to the to conclusion that, if anything, it was a kindergarten step into the separation of "spirit" from body ... nothing that i experienced during my OBE's had anything to do with human life, physical entities or the like ... i don't have any answers to my experiences, and am not really making any claims about them ... i believe these "events" happened because of my desire and determination to find the source of the unusual feelings/inspirations etc that bombarded my mind from youth ... i really don't know 
 

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Re: [AvC] Re: Religion-Vs-Honesty, Integrity & Truth



On Thursday, 21 August 2014 10:35:15 UTC+1, LL wrote:


On Aug 21, 2014, at 2:29 AM, lawrey <lawre...@btinternet.com> wrote:



On Thursday, 21 August 2014 10:20:05 UTC+1, LL wrote:


On Aug 21, 2014, at 12:45 AM, lawrey <lawre...@btinternet.com> wrote:



On Sunday, 17 August 2014 18:12:12 UTC+1, LL wrote:


On Aug 16, 2014, at 4:55 PM, Timbo <thcu...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>
> Organized religion has nothing to do with wars (never did) in the since of fighting over their differing superstitions. Religious superstitious difference was used and still used as an excuse to go to war and gain power. Mostly male dominance power. Think of it as waving a large penis instead of cross or flag.
>
> Yes, superstitions of large penises or gods would still exist without organized religion.  It is in the historic pattern of humans to not only believe in superstitions but also group together in rituals to bring on psychological illusions of spirits of large penis or gods helping them in life and death as a father would. As society becomes more advanced and better means of defending against suffering, a group ritual effort to have mental illusions about penis and gods is less necessary. Heck, just pick up a rock or sock and go for it. The human mind is a playground of whatever you wish it to be if you believe.

Excellent points, Timbo.

LL


                            Well that may be if you have some sort of fixation on large penises. Does that come under penis envy, or fascination? ;))

I see absolutely nothing to envy or be fascinated with. Penis envy is another lie created by men to denigrate women. Real penis envy is felt only by other men and they pretend that women feel the same way because it makes them feel superior. Nothing could be further from the truth. :(

LL


                                   LL,

                                         Some times you come out with the profound and at others you say some unnecessary  things with which I fully agree as with the above comment.
                                         Can't think why you bit on that so hard. The world knows men suffer with penis envy and I for one would never make that a claim for woman.

                                         Fascination however is a different story. :)

Well, perhaps you're fascinated by penises but that's never been my experience, nor the experience of any woman I know. There is plenty to be fascinated with in this world but I'd put penises at the very bottom of the list. ;)

LL.


                        Well my friend, I will not argue with you I cannot, because I know nothing of your experiences, but I am allowed to venture my own

                        From a very early age I was aware that about the only thing a girl was interested in was the size of his John Thomas; if you had a substantial appendage all the girls wanted to experience it,
                        if it was thought you were miniscule in that department then you would needs be required to rely on other attributes. All my life and even today woman I find are obsessed with the length,
                        and girth, of the male organ. I know because I have spent a lot of time in the company of nurses, and I used to arrange parties for them and listen to their frivolous chatter on the subject
                        over a number of years. Being in welfare and involved as a listener has given me a very broad range of the opinions of both men and women My first encounters with the opposite sex was
                        from the age of ten when I was raped by a girl of fifteen, the impression she gave me and the very many experiences I have had since leave me in no doubt what-so-ever, that women found
                        it difficult to be faithful to boyfriends and husbands if the size was right.  That said however, I will just relate that I chanced upon a very attractive young woman in Port Talbot, to my horror after
                        some time, of my association with her she confessed that she was a lady of easy virtue and earned her living on her back so to speak. She was quickly made aware I would never consider
                        paying my hard earned cash on sex. She was most voluble on the subject, and she told me that unless a mans hap-penis and or  joystick were of either extreme she couldn't tell when
                        engaged in coitus, so size was of no concern to her.... Just the money she was able to earn from it......So you pays your money and takes your choice as the saying goes.

                         We both must expect that no two life experiences are the same, I respect yours, I hope and trust you may respect mine and it may be best if we agreed to leave it at that. :)
                                       
 

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[AvC] Female Kurdish fighters won't stand for male dominance

Seems like a motto of female PKK fighters from before ISIS came on the scene.
http://www.institutkurde.org/en/info/female-fighters-we-won-t-stand-for-male-dominance-1223595409.html

ISIS's Worst Nightmare: An All-Women Battalion
http://www.ijreview.com/2014/08/167994-meet-isiss-worst-nightmare-women-battalion-kurdish-fighters/
Kurdistan is one of the few Muslim countries where women are allowed to serve in the military, let alone serve in a combat role. Either way, ISIS, which likes to deny women their basic rights, is going to have hell on its hands when it faces these women. It would be a great irony if ISIS met its defeat at the hands of these Kurdish women. Try to stone these women to death, ISIS scum, and you just might wind up double-tapped.

Avesta and her companions are fighters with the People's Protection Units (YPG), a Kurdish militia defending Syria's northeastern Hasakah province.
http://www.vice.com/read/meet-the-kurdish-female-freedom-fighters-of-syria
"If I see a commander, I will shoot him," says the 27-year-old sniper, Avesta, her long brown hair coming down to her shoulders. "Otherwise, I pick whoever is closest to me." Avesta and her companions are fighters with the People's Protection Units (YPG), a Kurdish militia defending Syria's northeastern Hasakah province. For much of the past year, the YPG's fighters have battled al-Qaeda-linked militants—notably the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria (ISIS) and Jabhat al-Nusra (JN)—and Free Syrian Army militants for control of the oil-producing province. "Destruction is very easy for al-Qaeda," Avesta says. "But [they don't] know how to rebuild." The active participation of a large number of female fighters speaks to a broader push in Syria's Kurdish regions, which are presently experiencing a resurgence of their culture after decades under the heel of the Syrian regime.

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[AvC] Re: THE INQUISITIVE IN PURSUIT OF THE INCONCEIVABLE.

>John, "Furthermore, our intellect is oriented toward organic interactions (other humans and >domestic animals)"... Oriented? Teleology?

No. We are social organisms. Those big brains of ours are the product of natural selection favoring skills for social interaction. Those are some of the same skills that find utility in dealing with other mammals--hence domestication of animals.

Now when our ancestors tried to understand the physical universe, the first thing they did was to consider an organic solution to the problem, hence Gods, spirits, etc.

When you speak words of anger or of encouragement to a malfunctioning mechanical device, you are doing the same thing.

John

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[AvC] Re: Case for evolution from a Christain???

So then I take that to mean you tolerate ISIS beheadings and torture as just survival of the fittest and part of normalcy as we are all just like apes, lions, etc. Lord save us from this insanity called atheism, come and claim your kingdom. If it is all evolution then how many hospitals that save many lives have the apes built, since they are just like us and we like them? How come the apes of today have not evolved to be just like us? How come they can't create and build things like us? If they are just like us how can their law be different than ours or ours different than theirs? Why don't they build prisons for the bad apes? How come it's proper for us to wear clothes and they are not required to if they are just like us? How come they don't have marriage ceremonies when they find a mate?

You have to be insane to actually think we are anything like other animals.  Each and everyone of us is unique and have set within in us a desire for a higher purpose in life than to just be like other animals. God created us and he loves us and wants us to have a personal relationship with Him. Your no better than ISIS, a cancer on the whole world that degrades human life from the wonderful experience it was meant to be. That's why the world is broken because of people like you and that's why we need a savior like Jesus Christ.

Evolution (Evil) is only a theory with no concrete proof and has been brought upon the world by those who do not want to be held accountable for their own decisions about right and wrong. Where as God's word (the bible) speaks the truth and there is not one legitimate instance where it has been proven wrong. As for me I'll take the truth over theory any day of the week.

On Wednesday, August 20, 2014 1:34:11 PM UTC-5, Boaz wrote:
Supposedly we have evolved magically from some animal form into humans beings. Not sure how that really works but humans without God seem to embrace it. I can clearly see now that somehow we have evolved back into animal form in the form of pigs (ISIS). Is this just par for the course of evolution as atheists make claim and should we expect more of the same in the future? Or, could this be the ongoing battle of GOOD vs. evil as manifested in the gospel? Love to hear your take on it one way or the other.

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Re: [AvC] Re: THE INQUISITIVE IN PURSUIT OF THE INCONCEIVABLE.



On Thursday, August 21, 2014 6:55:39 AM UTC-4, e_space wrote:


On Thursday, August 21, 2014 6:06:29 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:


On Thursday, August 21, 2014 5:55:29 AM UTC-4, e_space wrote:


On Thursday, August 21, 2014 12:41:31 AM UTC-4, LL wrote:


On Aug 20, 2014, at 1:21 PM, e_space <espac...@gmail.com> wrote:

> science is not going to provide evidence of GOD any time soon ... it can't even say for sure what OBE's are ...  

Then there is no reason to believe god or OBEs exist except in the imagination.

regarding OBE: from your perspective yes, but not from those who have had them ... they are not imagined and are often the most important and inspiring experiences in a persons life, to the point where they are actually life changing, as in my case ... 

regarding GOD: i agree ... there is no evidence, and without the experience, let your imagination run wild, or not (shrug)
 
What do you say to one who claims as vivid and life changing an epiphany (experience of God) as your experience of OBE? 

an epiphany doesn't mean an experience of GOD ...

It has other meanings but it can mean that:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/epiphany
2:  an appearance or manifestation especially of a divine being
 
if someone tells me that they have seen a big white-bearded guy sitting up in the clouds i tell them i am very happy for them and then beat a quick retreat ... if someone wants to talk about their OBE i certainly am interested ... if they start talking about physical things such as they see on earth (i.e. looking down at their body from above),

Suppose they could successfully tell the future by dreams in some of which a voice claiming to be God speaks to them?
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100711053653AAuFIho
 I hope I don't upset you by saying this, but I wouldn't call it a premonition if it hasn't happened yet. When I was younger, I used to have "daydreams" quite a bit and they'd occur (hasn't happened in many years. I also used to have OBEs and can tell you, they're nothing to play with).

i quickly come to the to conclusion that, if anything, it was a kindergarten step into the separation of "spirit" from body ... nothing that i experienced during my OBE's had anything to do with human life, physical entities or the like ... i don't have any answers to my experiences, and am not really making any claims about them ... i believe these "events" happened because of my desire and determination to find the source of the unusual feelings/inspirations etc that bombarded my mind from youth ... i really don't know 
 

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[AvC] Re: IN THE END ANALYSIS.



On Thursday, August 21, 2014 6:42:05 AM UTC-4, lawrey wrote:


On Thursday, 21 August 2014 10:49:00 UTC+1, e_space wrote:


On Thursday, August 21, 2014 4:40:28 AM UTC-4, lawrey wrote:



                 e_space,

                                     I am not trying to be awkward with you,

you aren't ... we are having a conversation ... 
 
you must believe what you like,

i don't really believe in anything concrete ... i appreciate the experiences i have had and, although i have no idea what they were, enjoy the feeling of knowledge and joy that they gave me ... 
 
no one can stop you nor would I of all people seek to stop you.

i'm not doing anything, so it would be rather hard to stop me ... i am simply reveling in a "spiritual" joy, that i tapped into through a lot of desire and determination ... after the "big 3" experiences, i more or less shut down any more searching or "doing" ... i had "found" what i was looking for have since just been chilling in the bliss of the "revelation" ... what you, or anyone else does, or doesn't do, is kosher with me ... 
 

                                     It's just that we do not share the same way of thinking on these things so we must beg to differ. I have no quarrel with you so don't
                                     take anything I say to heart, but I too am allowed an opinion. :)

i'm sorry if you felt any different ... you are not bothering me with your comments at all ... viva la difference i say ;-^)



                                                  > > OK just thought I'd clarify, incase you got the wrong impression. :)

nae problem laddie ... i am more interested in words than attitude's ... actually, i am quite used to, and immune from, those who disagree with me, or just don't like me ... its all good my friend ... 
 





 
 

On Wednesday, 20 August 2014 22:10:56 UTC+1, e_space wrote:


On Wednesday, August 20, 2014 4:59:33 PM UTC-4, lawrey wrote:


On Wednesday, 20 August 2014 21:33:17 UTC+1, e_space wrote:


On Wednesday, August 20, 2014 3:56:44 PM UTC-4, lawrey wrote:


On Wednesday, 20 August 2014 20:39:13 UTC+1, e_space wrote:


On Wednesday, August 20, 2014 2:29:26 PM UTC-4, lawrey wrote:


On Wednesday, 20 August 2014 15:48:46 UTC+1, e_space wrote:


On Tuesday, August 19, 2014 10:34:21 AM UTC-4, lawrey wrote:


On Tuesday, 19 August 2014 11:02:34 UTC+1, e_space wrote:


On Tuesday, August 19, 2014 4:05:30 AM UTC-4, lawrey wrote:


On Tuesday, 19 August 2014 07:46:52 UTC+1, dillan wrote:
You're partially right in that fundamentalism is slowly dying out. But religion will remain a dominant part of our society forever. Atheism, on the other hand will gain more popularity in the short term. That's only because atheism is seen as an alternative to religious conservatism. But, rational theism is also on the rise. 
I find it incredible why otherwise rational people become atheists. Agnosticism, I understand, but atheism is slightly more rational than fundamentalism. Oh well. People are weird I suppose.



                    I find it rather odd and at the same time lamentable that any sane person would wish to see a child taught to tell lies and to be told its OK to be superstitious and to fear the unknown.

                    To me in this day and age I think it is incredible that religion has been allowed for so long to teach lies and deceit about a nonexistent concept

all concepts are ignorant of factual existence, not to say that the concept doesn't exist ... to support your observation ... as a concept, religion should be taught as a concept, accompanied by some information about belief vs knowledge ... imo, kids should be raised by their parents in concert with educational teaching practices, in which one is given either facts or, if no facts are evident, it is taught as a theory ... anything more than that is brainwashing ... 

i don't think it is really wrong to teach kids about the potential of an "advanced existence" ... in the history of mankind, virtually all peoples had some form of GOD or another ... 

i can't imagine anyone who was more immersed in christianity than myself ... i was fortunate enough to be stubborn and highly skeptical by nature ... since my conscience wasn't being impressed by what i was being "taught" (read "ramrodded into my cranium"), i rejected it, more or less completely ... what i replaced the bombardment of religious rhetoric with, was conscience introspection ... 

being more or less isolated from the world until i left home at 19, i had LOTS of time for introspection ... some of the early things that impressed me were goosebumps that i could get just by thinking about something ... although i realized that goosebumps were a physical reaction, what caused them incited my mind to riot ... emotions became THE thing, which led me to be addicted to the heart of my conscience ... 

i began to imagine an existence where all of these nano-second emotional "orgasms" could be put together to create an ongoing feeling of bliss ... of course, as a human who must ingest and egest foodstuffs, this wasn't an option ... i began a routine where i would introspect on these rushes for extended periods of time ... any minor conscious "abnormality" gained my immediate and prolonged attention, and i put a welcome mat out for "contact" with what i had begun to believe, was an external source of knowledge and bliss ... an energy that we may be able to tap into ... eventually, i did have some experiences that supported my "concept" about an "advanced energy" that we have access too ... 

bottom line is ... i feel that there is something "out" there, that our human energy is part of ... how we teach this to kids is obviously the question at hand (since getting rid of religion is a pipe dream imo) ... unfortunately, even if a good method of introducing the prospects of "spirit" (forget the GOD thing) were developed, it would be virtually impossible to convince religious fanatics to raise their kids without the fervent insemination of "GOD as a fact" into their body fluids ... wouldn't hold my breath for that one ... whatever mountain you are climbing, i would suggest that you prepare to never reach the summit ... nothing wrong with trying however, so bon chance mon ami! 

 


            > > There is nothing wrong with teaching advanced existence just as long as it can be shown to have existed. Most of my work has been the study of origins, and god/s are not part of
                   human origins, Superhuman  powers were, as an unknown force to explain the lack of knowledge. These supposed human forces are what eventually became gods through religious
                   organisations seeking power and wealth. God/s have never been known to exist; why pretend they did and or do? That is no way to educate children. it is bad very bad indeed and wrong!

like i said, drop the god stuff ... god, according to current myths, are dominant and superior, omnipotent, etc, vastly different than my feelings about it ... but i'm not willing to drop the concept of "spirit energy", that i feel we all possess, and according to science, cannot be destroyed ... you did not address this issue ... and no, showing that "advanced existence" actually exists is virtually impossible ... but there are just too many instances of OBE's, near death experiences and many other similar experiences that many people have had, to simply write it off ... those who have had such experiences are totally convinced that something else exists, and those who haven't are just as adamant that this is someone all inherent in the individual human body ... and really, never the twain shall likely meet ... 


                 e_space,

                                    I quite deliberately ignored the ( spirit energy, ) and not without reason, It is just another conundrum like the god/belief, devil/worship, angel/adoration Fairies at the bottom of the garden syndrome.

i understand it may seem this way to those who have not had any interaction outside of their own minds, and the minds of others ... totally used to it 
                        
                                          > >     Many there are that fool themselves and get used to doing so.

you have no idea about their experiences ... so how do you know they are fooling themselves? 

                                                  > >  Unfortunately individual experiences need to be proven before they can be believed as yet we wait with bated breath.

if most people are like me in this regard, they really couldn't give a rats patoot if their experiences are proven ... they just enjoy the feelings of the experiences themselves, WHATEVER they were ... 
 
 
 

                                    Try counting the millions just in America who are convinced that some sort of god exists. They are all wrong!

                                       according to your belief they are, yes ... of course, you really have no idea, just like everyone else

                                         > >  Sorry in that you are wrong, it is not a question of what I believe, history is quite clear on the subject of the origins of god/things.

history is the recording of events ... spiritual "events" are unrecordable ... btw, the bible is an "historical" book according to some, but you totally disbelieve it ... from my perspective, history has no place in conversations of "spirit" ... 

                                   > > That is perfectly correct, supposed spiritual imagined events are unrecorded for a very good reason.
 
OBE's and NDE's all explainable when individual cases are understood

these things are not understood completely ... there is a lot of vague and ambiguous opinions about them, but from what i know, there is no conclusive white paper on them ... if there is, please supply a link ... 

                            >  >    OH they are understood by those who study them, I know of no papers neither am I interested.

why aren't you interested? scared you'll find something that bucks your "belief" that there is nothing "out" there? 

                                       > > Rather like god-things, why should I concern myself with the unknown and unknowable?

if everyone had that outlook, science would not exist ... btw, who determines what is unknowable? 
 
 
If you are a believer

i am more into enjoying the memory of my experiences than i am trying to figure out exactly what they were ... i have no real way of knowing, so why bother? ... 
 
you'll probably say any evidence

i haven't seen any, so i am not saying anyone is right or wrong ... not everything is known, and certainly some things that are known are not known by everyone ... that's just the way it is ... 
 
that does not agree is misunderstood or
                                      vague, there are bound to be widely differing opinions between those who kid themselves and those that see through the kidology.
 
Just read my new
                                    Post. if it gets off the ground it could be interesting for you, but I am not launching into it unless there is interest. It's title:  THE INQUISITIVE IN PURSUITE OF THE INCONCEIVABLE.


 
 



 
which is watching over us every moment of every day,
                    counting up our errors through life and at the end scoring us on a worthiness to enter the gates of some illusory heaven, which all our latest technology cannot find anywhere in the universe,
                    even though it has mapped just about everything else. Make no mistake it may take time but the odds against religion are stacked against long term survival; as it should be, it is an evil practice
                    and should be made unlawful.






On Monday, August 18, 2014 3:40:25 AM UTC-7, lawrey wrote:


                 All else said on the subject of religion. It is quite obvious here in the Western world, that Religion and god/s are a thing of the past;.... Lets rephrase that..... to god/s being a thing of the past.
                 The religious die-hards are not going to give up easily or any time soon, because there appears to be some psychological glitch in their make-up which refuses to let go of the idea. It is
                 as if they actually need  a god/father-figure, or should that be want one, they certainly don't need one, as time has shown quite clearly, because the world has done without one since for-
                 ever........Try as they might they have been singularly unsuccessful in persuading the rest of us that such a thing exists......One perhaps ought to doubt if they really think it does, themselves.

                  If this is the true outcome of religious belief......I mean the general acknowledgement now that god/s are not known to exist;.... where does that leave religiously minded peoples and
                  organizations, where do they go from here. When you think about it they cannot any more logically be taken seriously, the whole movement is fast becoming a laughing-stock.

                  We as atheists do have a problem with this outcome. How now do we handle this, ( what must be an awful embarrassment for theists.)  Up to now we have by our tacit acceptance of their
                  right to promulgate their nonsense: encouraged them to argue the toss over god-existence and by so-doing to a certain extent kept them longer in the lime-light than they deserve.

                  In the end analysis what as atheists can we do, except offer our condolences and bid them god's speed to an early resolution of their problems. ;)
                 

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