On Thursday, April 17, 2014 4:41:54 AM UTC+2, Loopflanger wrote:
On Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:12:37 PM UTC-7, Rupert wrote:Presumably, they take a vote on how big his salary should be, and they are the ones who invested the capital which enabled the company to function in the first place.
Labor is the enabler & the materialize-r here. Investing capital is investing people's time & labor. If you pay them nothing, that would be slavery. If you pay them next to nothing, why would that be more justifiable than the former?
Tell me more about it and I'll tell you whether I think it's justifiable.
Who is being paid next to nothing? Which company?
You're referring to a situation where the CEO makes 365 times more than, I assuming, the lowest paid employee. What's the necessity for that, (other than saying somebody arbitrarily decided to do that)?
Well, it's an outcome of a decision by the stockholders....
Which is an arbitrary decision on their part.
It certainly wasn't arbitrary. They made it on the basis of what they thought would maximise the profitability of the stock.
You don't have to explain why workers with marginal productivity get low wages. You have to explain the justification for paying CEOs so much more than the people who work under them. (& if their productivity is so low, why should the CEO be awarded for that, in the first place?)
I'd be assuming it would be because they want to have a CEO who will make a big contribution to the profitability of the company, and they have to pay him a high wage or he'll go and work for another company?
So I don't really have a problem with the idea that they should make the decision. And of course if the company's employees find it unfair then they are free to withdraw their labour. They can also unionise if they want to, so as to organise collective withdrawal of labour if they feel that is appropriate.
Well, hell's bells. Why stop there? Why not rid of this parasitical relationship all together THAT YOU HAVEN'T DEMONSTRATED ANY NECESSITY FOR, other than signifying that this is how things are CURRENTLY done.
Of course there's no necessity for it, no-one has to take a job ...
No, labor is necessary (for any useful things to exist &/or to be made use of). It's private ownership of this process that isn't absolutely necessary. Now, if you think otherwise, explain.
I don't think that private ownership of the means of production is absolutely necessary, I just don't think that you've demonstrated that any of the alternatives would somehow be a less "parasitical" relationship.
The matter is: You haven't demonstrated that a non-parasitical relationship is impossible.
I never made such a claim. I don't think you've demonstrated that the relationnships that exist in the current economic system are parasitical.
You just keep trying to justify what is demonstrably parasitical
even though you now admit that it isn't absolutely necessary.
I haven't really been making any attempt to justify it. I have been offering speculations about why the stockholders make the decisions they do.
If wealth is to be created then it is necessary to have some kind of organisational structure and it is necessary that people have motivation of some description for participating in that organisational structure. I'm sure there are many possible alternatives to the structures that actually exist in the present society, but the point is you haven't demonstrated that anything is available which is appreciably better than what we've actually got.
Why do you support a parasitical economic order?
Isn't that pathological? Doesn't that conflict with your beatific notions about alleviating suffering?
No, capitalism has been enormously successful at alleviating suffering.
Doesn't that reduce YOUR CONCERN for non-human animals to moral hypocrisy?
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